[Pve] (2000 Runs!) So, what's the 'best' PvE DPS now?

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    • [Pve] (2000 Runs!) So, what's the 'best' PvE DPS now?

      Link to current update

      Hey guys, I didn't really know what to call the topic, but I guess if you're reading this, I got your attention.

      I like data mining and I'm currently trying to build some kind of database of Katalamize/Hyperion Runs to evaluate PvE DPS for different classes and setups. As a single person, I can only run these instances so often and I only have a small portion of the playerbase to take data from. For instance my server has many very good Gladiators, but it's lacking good Sorcerers and leather classes.

      So my point is: I'd be very happy if there were people on here saving their Katalamize/Runadium-DPS sessions on ARM and willing to share these with me so I can add them to my list as to have a broader range of examples. (I really need some new hobbies while commuting to work I guess...)

      Anyhow, the basic thing looks something like this (not an up-to-date-screenshot, though)





      I do normalize the 'DPS' by just dividing the absolute Damage by the time the whole run took. Yes, this does include shields and adds and what-not and drops DPS compared to what ARM shows. However, I can answer how effective different classes are for certain instances overall. Assassins might be best DPS on a resting target, but in Runadium, they are not as effective. This has to be considered.

      Looks something like this:

      So if you could send me some stuff per PM or just in the thread... highly appreciated <3


      PS:
      And to answer the original question... For Katalamize it's Gladiators, hands down, for Runadium it's basically any ranged DPS, with the single 'best' DPS done by a DPS Cleric in the data I have.

      PPS: Please add Server and faction to your informations please. It makes a difference for Rangers and SMs mostly.

      The post was edited 8 times, last by Erufuun ().

    • from mine litle expierence as sin (strife dagger/ancient sword)) i do at least 3.6k dps on instances i tried so far. (note never done with sm IB ) with IB and better equip dps should be better.

      as for runa i dount know but sin is prety much effective it may tank runa quite easy

      P.S. for me is a bit to understand things you show, in it sin oweral dps is 2,x k?
      Telemachus lazy SM/Male

      The post was edited 1 time, last by [NICK]male ().

    • Balls wrote:

      Calculating DPS by dividing the entire damage with overal time it's very inaccurate and benefit certain classes.
      ARM is made as it is for a reason.


      I'm well aware of this and even mentioned the implications in my description. Thanks for reading. :D

      Yes, it does benefit certain classes - that's because the instances make these classes benefit, not the other way around. This way, I can tell how effective a class can function for this particular instance. I don't care for three-minute-training-dummy damage. While good for training purposes, it's purely theoretical DPS as there's no similar real PvE encounter.

      Sure, there are shields SM can DoT through, other classes can't to that. But why would I disregard the advantage this class has over a Gladiator, who will just be idling meanwhile?
      Sure, certain classes take breaks to support in one way or another. However, if it's mandatory they do take these breaks, why would I act as if they never had to stop DPS'ing? (This mostly applies to DPS Clerics, SMs and Songweavers)
      Also squishy classes will, on average, die sometimes and this makes their average DPS suffer. Can't disregard that.

      I compared a lot of ARM DPS numbers with the ones I calculated - and nuke classes such as Sorcerers have a much higher difference between each of them. You all know why: If I only cast nukes on my sorcerer but little inbetween, of course my DPS is going to be high, but my overall Damage is going to suffer. This is why ARM DPS is utter bullnyerk in my opinion. I'd much rather have a realistic estimate for real encounters.
      Also nyerking AoEs.


      I'm not saying "Class A is the best PvE DPS class period", what I'm saying is "Considering both average and peak overall damage in instance B I deem class A to be the most efficient DPS class for Instance B." This does say nothing about it's effectiveness in instance C.
      Assassins can easily be the best DPS for Katalamize, however the mechanics of Runadium make Assassins subpar for this instance, as such, Assassin is not the best PvE class for Runadium.
      However, having an Assassin as the only close range class in Runadium makes a run through the instance insanely fast - (even though Gladiators do just as well due to AoEs).

      Also, as evident by the little data I have (that's why I need more), while it still might be random, there seems to be a slight correlation between amount of Assassins and Rangers and how fast Hyperion dies. (Or rather, the other way around - having many cloth classes slows down the run on average?)

      PvE DPS is not onedimensional and with a big enough sample size we can draw conclusions regarding party setup and whatnot. I can see how good cloth classes do with a Songweaver among them or with a second chanter, how does Infernal Blight affect stuff? Dual Infernal Blight?
      Plus I really love datamining and making nigh pointless statistics.

      @male

      It's not DPS as ARM would display it. It's really the entire damage a class did throughout the whole boss fight divided by the whole time the boss fight took. I need a common denominator, as already stated, I can't disregard downtimes certain classes have because of a dungeon's mechanics. They are part of the experience and make some classes more or less optimal for the specific encounter.

      Edit:

      Just to show you how 'encounter specific' and 'ARM' DPS compare, I made a small list a while ago regarding the best individual DPS for each class.
      This is what it looks like:

      Keep in mind, this a a little bit outdated, I do have better values for certain classes by now.
      Also my server (Vehalla) is considered rather weak and all my data, as of now, is from Vehalla (Elyos and Asmo), Balder (Elyos) and Kromede (Asmo). The vast majority, obviously, from Vehalla Elyos.

      Edit II:

      Also, I'd like other people to interpret the raw data as well, I'm biased and probably don't see all of the possible correlations.

      The post was edited 11 times, last by [NICK]erufuun ().

    • i dount know it,s prety much inposible to claim some1 is best and somet1 is nearly uselles or weaker, because it,s not true. in end player skills gear > everything else. did see and temlar in top of kata list, once did see and even sorcer ( lol weard)

      and even way how you gona do runa, will all dps wipe adds fast or will they leave some not so deadly to finish for sin and etc. it will affect end total dmg and dps.

      at mine point of wiev melle > rest. from cloths/chain sm> rest in pve. ( note diff is not rly huge since in end players sometimes do crazy things with classes they role)

      P.S. as i do understand your calculation you care to see most usefull basicly total dmg, yuor dps calculation well i dount see reason to calculate this way, since it doesnt mean anything it = total dmg
      Telemachus lazy SM/Male

      The post was edited 1 time, last by [NICK]male ().

    • [NICK]erufuun wrote:


      Yes, it does benefit certain classes - that's because the instances make these classes benefit, not the other way around. This way, I can tell how effective a class can function for this particular instance. I don't care for three-minute-training-dummy damage. While good for training purposes, it's purely theoretical DPS as there's no similar real PvE encounter.


      Then please change the name of the topic to "which class is the best DPS for runadium and katalamize"
      Not general PvE DPS. Also you can't compare ARM logs and outputs with various group setups.
      You are most likely aware that DPS of an individual is highly influenced by certain classes like SM/Chanters and the overall DPS of entire group. It's very inaccurate to compare for instance a DPS of 2 different groups, where the 1st had 2x WoW, 4x WoQ, constant WoI, IB on boss and SWOP and 2nd didn't. What if not even a single assassin from you sessions have WoW?

      [NICK]erufuun wrote:

      however the mechanics of Runadium make Assassins subpar for this instance, as such, Assassin is not the best PvE class for Runadium.


      Nope.

      dl-web.dropbox.com/get/runa%20…pqbbZYY79tZFh1hE5gAQ&dl=1

      This is my latest runa run I had from idk 4-5 months ago.
      ARM says 4.051 DPS, with your calculations 3.116
      Considering the crapy gear I had back then and single BM bow +0, now with current one I am positive I'd reach ~3.5k+

      dl-web.dropbox.com/get/kata%20…zHa1T4I7b5MbLcN3kCmQ&dl=1

      This is 5.3k DPS kata, not the highest I had. 4.158 divided by entire time.
    • [NICK]male wrote:

      i dount know it,s prety much inposible to claim some1 is best and somet1 is nearly uselles or weaker, because it,s not true. in end player skills gear > everything else. did see and temlar in top of kata list, once did see and even sorcer ( lol weard)

      and even way how you gona do runa, will all dps wipe adds fast or will they leave some not so deadly to finish for sin and etc. it will affect end total dmg and dps.

      at mine point of wiev melle > rest. from cloths/chain sm> rest in pve. ( note diff is not rly huge since in end players sometimes do crazy things with classes they role)


      I'm not trying to claim absolute 100% certainity. Yes, there are individual runs where certain classes, such as templar, are on top. by comparing this damage to how the other classes did, I can put this in proportion. I can tell how far from 'average' peak damage is. Yes, Skill > Gear holds true to differing degrees. A very geared Assassin can just be as bad as a god tier played Gladiator on Battle Medaillon gear.

      But over many samples, all this averages out - while I simultaneously can pick out individual instances out of the norm.
      Even how Adds are dealt with averages out, how many everyone dies averages out. With enough data, I can back up any claims I make by actual numbers than my gut feeling, which feels a whole ton better.
    • Don't really understand what you're trying to figure out by overcomplicating everything :|

      Any dpsmeter's total damage output(not DPS) is what you should look at if you wanna know which class is better for certain instances.

      arm even gives priority to total damage dealt rather than to top DPS.

      All in all a templar can outdps a gladiator if the gladiator is bad enough, doesn't mean templar is good pve dps, because, it always comes down to stats and who is behind those stats (player).

      Alltho i come first in most katalamize runs (gladiator), I know for a fact some assassins can outdps me there and any theory just gets blown out the window when someone is godlike at his class.
    • Balls wrote:

      [NICK]erufuun wrote:


      Yes, it does benefit certain classes - that's because the instances make these classes benefit, not the other way around. This way, I can tell how effective a class can function for this particular instance. I don't care for three-minute-training-dummy damage. While good for training purposes, it's purely theoretical DPS as there's no similar real PvE encounter.


      Then please change the name of the topic to "which class is the best DPS for runadium and katalamize"
      Not general PvE DPS. Also you can't compare ARM logs and outputs with various group setups.
      You are most likely aware that DPS of an individual is highly influenced by certain classes like SM/Chanters and the overall DPS of entire group. It's very inaccurate to compare for instance a DPS of 2 different groups, where the 1st had 2x WoW, 4x WoQ, constant WoI, IB on boss and SWOP and 2nd didn't. What if not even a single assassin from you sessions have WoW?


      I just wanted to get the attention of some people to click on this and send me some data. At the moment, I am only comparing these two instances because I deem them to be most imporant ones. Rune Tower often gets their boss runs sold or given to twinks. Sauro I don't do often enough, Steel Wall is *really* tough to compare.
      I do have enough data to make a list of 3.x DLR, but I don't really want to bother with that.

      Yes, I am well aware that alliance setup has a huge influence, however by putting all of this in a list, this both averages out of time but I can still look at each individual run and say 'Oh look, this Assassin has over 9k DPS *but* he's had two chanters and two SMs to buff him. That puts stuff in proportion.



      [NICK]erufuun wrote:

      however the mechanics of Runadium make Assassins subpar for this instance, as such, Assassin is not the best PvE class for Runadium.


      Nope.

      Nope as in...?



      Thanks for sharing these! <3


      Rin wrote:

      Don't really understand what you're trying to figure out by overcomplicating everything :|

      Any dpsmeter's total damage output(not DPS) is what you should look at if you wanna know which class is better for certain instances.

      arm even gives priority to total damage dealt rather than to top DPS.

      All in all a templar can outdps a gladiator if the gladiator is bad enough, doesn't mean templar is good pve dps, because, it always comes down to stats and who is behind those stats (player).

      Alltho i come first in most katalamize runs (gladiator), I know for a fact some assassins can outdps me there and any theory just gets blown out the window when someone is godlike at his class.


      I don't see how I'm overcomplicating it by itself. The graph is straight forward. It's absolute damage for each individual class. The conclusions are much more complex though.
      What I am looking at is the total damage output, after all, I consider ARM DPS to be utterly pointless. But I still need to consider how fast the dungeon was cleared. If I had a single DD with 4kk damage and everyone else resting at 500k each and the run taking 19,5 minutes, I need to consider this. That's where my weird idea of 'DPS' comes from.

      Yes, an individual Templar can outdps a Gladiator, if he is bad enough. But usually, he doesn't - over many runs, I'll have my fair share of god tier Templars and god tier Gladiators after all.

      And don't forget, that's why I'm asking for help here, as a single person I simply can't run instances with all of the actual god tier players. My sample size using only the runs I participated in is both small and biased. (Many good gladiators, very few leather classes!)
    • Rin wrote:

      arm shows absolute damage dealt over any period of time you need, just hit the reset damage button.

      What is so hard about it?

      and yes you are overcomplicating, who the hell wants to look at that clusternyerk of a document? :|


      Uh, I don't quite understand? I'm doing it.

      I reset ARM the second the Shield goes down/the Nevilim is killed and save the session as soon as the boss is dead. After that, I look at the timestamp of the 'First Hit' and the 'Last Hit' and take the time inbetween, which is how long it took to kill the boss.

      Also...
      Me. And I'm sure there are other people out there. Even if not. Me. :D
      I love to be able to back up all this nyerk I'm spouting with actual data rather than with "Uh, I guess.. um.. SM is OP... I think"*


      * (Which they are.)

      Edit:

      D'aw <3 I see no double post. Too much cuteness
    • total damage dealt is the more correct way of looking at how effective a class is in an instance, taking the total damage and splitting it on how many seconds it took to clear it, gives a DPS which does not represent how well someone played while they had something to hit.

      My point is all of this seems so useless to me, but go ahead I wont stop you ><
    • Am I being unclear?

      Time certain classes have nothing to hit are considered downtimes, which are part of the experience.

      It corresponds to the effectiveness of classes for certain encounters. Ranged DDs hitting Modor at range have an advantage over classes who can't do that. Hence they are better suited for the instance.

      @Balls
      Also, these links don't work for me. :(
      How much do the ranged DDs help you with the Adds in Runadium? Considering that amount of DPS, I'd guess you're completely doing them solo. xD

      The post was edited 2 times, last by [NICK]erufuun ().

    • No offense to the OP or anything but just enjoy the game for what it is. No one cares what the number crunching turns out to be as long as boss drops decent loot. I recall there used to be a guy on telemachus who was really anal about what everyones damage was at sieges. Ofcourse, he had to be at the top otherwise his e-peen would suffer and make him go into depression/excuse mode as to the reasons why someone had higher dps than him (really sad tbh). In the end people just got fed up about his obsession and blocked him lol.
    • Balls wrote:

      Calculating DPS by dividing the entire damage with overal time it's very inaccurate and benefit certain classes.
      ARM is made as it is for a reason.


      If you see his calculations as "most effective DPS for ______ instance", then they kind of make sense.

      Also, there are things like ARM not calculating the time needed to do a charge skill, which f.e puts cannon gunners easily over what they can really do dps wise. So you have to take the total DMG and divide it by the time instance took to get a realistic number.
    • [NICK]erufuun wrote:

      And to answer the original question... For Katalamize it's Gladiators, hands down, for Runadium it's basically any ranged DPS, with the single 'best' DPS done by a DPS Cleric in the data I have.
      LOL. Glad? LOL.

      Yes, really GG glad can do a lot. However, those type of glads are *very* rare and need ridiculously extreme gear...and they still likely be beaten by other classes.

      BTW, Runa is quite much to disadvantage of Rangers as some targets are outside the range of bestial fury.

      Looking at 24 instance...a totally insane glad can shine there, but usually you'll see the typical suspects just as at other places: cleric, gunner, ranger (with apparantly much more difficulty for the cleric to shine as much as the others, but properly geared + played they are a totally insane class).

      In any case, I think such lists are misleading, as they a lot rely on setup, what other group members do and how they perform. So I think it's useless...

      It's not even possible to say "gear this or that class up and you'll be top" - as it's not that easy. Bad PC, bad ping, lack of focus, there's so much that can make big difference aside from the all time RNG fun. Some people in those lists might even have had much different results had they not taken the random boss aggro, had someone elses mistake not killed them, ...

      So question is what you really want to achieve with this and then if there's not a better way for that.
    • Ok,

      Firstly, I think when talking about the best PvE class, lets consider the player got optimal conditions (low ping, good computer).

      Over my experience,

      Katalamize :

      Glad = Sin > Ranger > Cleric = Sorc > SM > Templar = Gunner > Bard > Chanter

      Bard may be able to out damage gunner actually, since it's a trash class only reliant on GS proc.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Yukinoshita ().

    • I do 4k dps on my gladi in katalamize on a good day. Havnt really been in pt where ppl could do more. Thats for katalamize ofc, which is a gladiator paradise ^^ ( not like any 4.x instance wouldnt be a gladiator paradise ^^ )